The ancients have said "he who says he knows but doesn't know is a fool. And he who says he doesn't know and knows that he doesn't know is a wise man". To understand the infinite by using our finite minds is an illusion married to a fantasy. Like a dog chasing it's tail. If the dog is unlucky enough to catch up with it's tail and bite it hopefully it will learn a lesson. But I have watched dogs chase their tails and they very seldom learn. It seems that they were born that way. The very nature of these two words "infinite" and "finite" exclude each other by their definitions. I leave these arguments for those who enjoy arguments. For me I just chose to set beneath the tree of my Mother Godess and watch this observable universe unfold before my very eyes. The Godess tree's shade covers all. The wise and the unwise. The Godess tree doesn't shade only a select few, on the contrary, it's soothing shade of enlightenment is there for all to have. Call it Moksha, Nirvana, Heaven or whatever one wants to call it. It's there for the taking, free for those who just wish to "Be". So, I'll just sit there and watch and listen to the arguments that unfold around me, as they swirl like a wind of confusion, "this" way then "that" way, ever blowing and never finding rest. visionary imagist "Joey"