Terry Harris 29 Oct 2006

Oh, this one is a tough subject. Can you give a link to the federal law on this?

I know that many older shots are sold , such as the ones say of political figures, the ones in Tombstone on Boot Hill.

I know it would be shocking to spot a family members used in art.

I think by not showing the names might be one way of not upsetting a family.

I know there are tons of photos that have been sed by artist.

There are virtual headstones on the internet for those doing resaerch on family trees. I was able to find some of my relatives that way. It wasn't being sold, but these are for maily use. Some go and take photos to post like this as a kindness as many would not ever be able to get to the cemetary. Information off the headstones or markers often give more information that helps with family research.

It may depend on what the photo was used for as well. For remebrance of lost love, memorial say, military shots. I don't know. This is a touchy area for sure, regardless.

Brian Sherwin 29 Oct 2006

I'll have to find it, but I remember a few years ago some students were taking images in a local cemetary and were stopped by the cops who told them that it was against federal law to capture a name or likeness of the person.

From what I was told you have to ask the family for the OK. Because if they see it and recognize it as the gravesite of a loved one they can take action. Especially if you have profited off of the image.

I think it depends on how old the graves are as well. For example, it is ok to take a photo of a 100 year old tombstone, but it might not be OK to take a picture of a grave that is only a few years old due to the fact that many of the family members are most likely alive.

Also, most cemetaries are considered private property when it comes to certain things. So rules may be different from one cemetary to the next.

Wendy Bandurski-Miller 29 Oct 2006

here here and yes there is an artists here who needs that link...

personally i do tend to agree with this limitation....

but it IS a gray area and while i have no disrespect .... it is a question of MORES AND MORALS AND CULTURE AND BELIEF.

one should always RESPECT........

its like manners after all.... don't you think?

29 Oct 2006

29 Oct 2006

RQ Trietsch 29 Oct 2006

I would have no problems taking pictures of grave stone and the likes, unless it's something recent and for journalistic profit that plays on the immediate circumstances.

29 Oct 2006

Brian Sherwin 29 Oct 2006

Ok. I wrote a few government sites to find out for certain. As stated, according to local police it is against Federal law. We shall find out for sure... I do know, from online research, that movie directors have to get permission from the city council and cemetary officials when filming in a cemetary. So I would think the same would go for anyone else.

As for ethics. True, most artists throughout time have not shown ethical standards. However, these days you can be sued for anything. So I don't think it is wise to take pictures of a gravesite... especially when photos of the dead are in the shot... only to sell them for your own profit. After all, the family paid for that site of rest, true? I'm looking out for the artists here.

The intention of the artist may be a noble one, but what would the family think? What would they think of someone making a profit off of their loss? What if the child died from cancer? What if the woman died because of a drunk driver? I would think it would be nice for the profits to go towards groups that research ways to prevent other from suffering the same death.

That is just what I think. No, I'm not the 'art cops' nor am I pointing fingers at anyone. I just see this as an issue we should think about because it goes beyond the imagination.

You can paint images of a gravesite all you want, but taking photos and earning a buck off of it just seems wrong to me... because the image is real... the situation is real for those still alive who miss their loved one.

david bass 29 Oct 2006

the dead don't care. unless its obvious who it is by either showing the name on the headstone or a landmark in the shot i don't see what the big deal would be. thats just me. as for the cops telling the people they couldn't take a picture.....how did they know they weren't related. seems the cops would have to be "ballsy" to ask if unsure of the connection. how many indian burial sites are you walking on in your everyday rituals of going to work etc....

Jane McIlroy 29 Oct 2006

I agree with Wendy that it's mainly a matter of respect. I've photographed a couple of graves, including the headstones, but they were of historical figures (W B Yeats and Tomás Ó Criomhtháin) and I did it out of respect for their work.

Any other time, I've been careful not to show anything that would identify the deceased - after all, it's the last resting place of a real person, which makes it more than just a study of architecture or cultural change.

Just my own opinion...

30 Oct 2006

Lisa Eshkenazi 30 Oct 2006

I agree with you Richard :)

Incidentally, several google searches did not reveal anything about it being illegal to photograph gravestones. Though there are lots of tutorials on how to do it out there. And some claimes that it's illegal to photograph gravestones in both England and France without the family's permission...

david bass 30 Oct 2006

what about headstone rubbings? i know this is a big hobby for some and i've never heard of it being illegal. in a way it has more "contact" than a photograph. you actually get down and touch the headstone and copy it.

Dan Perez 30 Oct 2006

I love photographing in cememtaries but usually make sure the name on the stone isn't showing in the photograph. Either it's because I stand a distance away and just get an interesting shot with the headstones againt foliage or whatever may be in the background or it's because the stones are so old, they are unreadable.

I have seen celebrity gravesite photos posted on the inetrenet and have had the feeling that it's a bit morbid. Although, the people photographing them do so, I assume, with a feling taht it's part of teh ecelebrities history and part of history in general.

Then too, as someone already mentioned, there are sites dedicated to tracing family ancestry that often have photos of graves on them. I guess this could be considered something helpful as it is done with tyhe intention of helping people connect to family.

I guess it's all in the way the photos are taken, used and presented. Like I said, I love taking cemeetary photos but always keep in mind that these are the graves of someone's relatives and that it has to be done with respect.

i've never heard of there being a law against it. It may be that ceratin cemetaries do not allow it. i do know that some cemetaries don't allow the grave rubbings that David mentioned. There is a law against here because there are so many historical graves that all the rubbing over the years has caused many to deteriorate.

Kari Franklin 30 Oct 2006

I'm one of those odd people who finds old cemeteries peaceful and have spent a good deal of time visiting them even as a young child.

Granted my interest lies in the very old and untended sites, not only because the newly departed usually have people that see to them and remember them, but also due to the simple beauty of the older headstone carvings, the isolation of the spots,the tendancy for there to be "guardian" trees as it were in such spots, the often peculiar and enigmatic epitaphs and I guess just the overall ambiance and loneliness of the locations.

I've done stone rubbings, taken photos and have visited, and tended to some sites that have for some reason been forgotten and left unvisited for many, many years...perhaps everyone who knew the person has died or moved away.

I am always respectful and in all honesty it never once occurred to me to sell any of my rubbings or photos. This "hobby" of mine has I suppose got more to do with some mechanism that comes into play when trying to deal with the loss of my own family and an innate resonance towards that which has been abandoned than anything else.

However, I was completely unaware that any of my activities were considered illegal. Then again, while I have encountered them, I have never been chased away to date by police, grounds keepers or anyone else for that matter.

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30 Oct 2006

Kari Franklin 30 Oct 2006

The ethics of such things are up to the individual. As I mentioned, I'm not nor have ever been interested in selling or otherwise displaying my photos or rubbings, then again, there are a number of things I posses which I'm not the least bit interested in selling even though there is a market for them, for my own reasons.

Would I be offended if I saw a family member's grave in a photograph that was being sold?

I doubt it, thought I do expect my being offended or not would depend on how the photograph was being used. But...the idea of requesting money for photographing the gravesite, of making a profit off of my deceased, is Absolutely *grotesque* to me.

Since I have no intention of ceasing my cemetery visits, I did some snooping around because I am curious as to whether or not I am breaking any laws.

I came up with tons of stock photography cemetery images, how to's on cemetery photography and several sites on Photographer's rights and privacy laws.

There are laws of course in every state against physically damaging the stones (such as using a power brush on the stones to make the engraving more readable like one dim bulb did) or for desecrating the graves themselves (you don't want to know), which carries a pretty stiff penalty as it should.

But, as far as I can tell, at least in my state, those surrounding me,and those I have visited so far, it is not illegal to photograph in cemeteries unless it happens to be a private cemetery in which case my even being there is deemed trespassing. Even so, it is act of trespassing, not the actual taking of photographs that would be the charge.

Although it also appears that cemeteries for the most part here are considered public property like parks and so in most cases a charge of trespassing wouldn't be applicable.

As far as publishing the photo goes, the pursuant would have to claim something like misappropriation or invasion of privacy, neither of which appears to be applicable to a gravesite of any type or age as long as it rests in a public cemetery.

This information is based solely on what I was able to find using general search terms, and there may be some extenuating factors of which I am unaware, in keeping, Brian if you do have information to the contrary please post it or a link so I can take a look at it.

Dan Perez 30 Oct 2006

Kari, I would love to se the sites you found, if you don't mind posting the links. Like I said, I like doing cemetary photography and would be interested in the sites that mention it. I've also been thinking of stone rubbing and would like to read some tips on that....just in case I ever find a cemetary that allows it.

30 Oct 2006